Reptile Forum, Reptile Classifieds - CaptiveBred

[devboy]

Further to concerns about this new legislation, any one who keeps one of the many European snakes, lizards, Chenolia or amphibians covered in the [url="http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/conservation/wildlife-management-licensing/habsregs.htm#advice"]EPS[/url], perhaps some emails I've sent and received to and from Natural England would be of interest to those who keep species listed. The replies are in blue.

To whom it may concern,

Can you advise if a license is required for UK reptile (specifically European snake) keepers, to keep and breed captive bred; Elaphe quatuorlineata (syn. Elaphe q. quatuorlineata), E. sauromates (syn. E. q. sauromates), Zamenis longissimus (syn. E. longissima)* and Z. situla (syn. E. situla)?

If so, how may one go about applying for such a license (or licenses if they are specimen specific)? If this is the case, potentially there is a number of UK keepers that will need to know about this, some of which will be members of our society.

If, as it is rumoured, keepers will require to prove that their specimens are captive bred - how on earth is that possible when no form of documentation has been previously required?

* There is a population in the UK of these Aesculapian Snakes, how does the new legislation affect the wild population, as they are non natives but resident within the UK and private keepers of species that were obtained from legal avenues elsewhere? Thank you for your time in advance, if you feel that there is anything else I should know, please inform. I have visited your site and Defra's but truthfully nothing is clearly explained about the European Protected Species and how it directly effects current UK keepers of species listed that are not native to the UK.

Kind regards, Dave Royans.
Chairperson - The Ratsnake Foundation
www.ratsnakefoundation.org

Their reply -

Dear Dave

Thank you for your email dated 2 October regarding possession of reptiles. A licence is required to possess any animal listed Annex IV of the Habitats Directive which was taken from the wild since 10th June 1994. However, this does not apply to captive bred animals. The Natural England guidance contains a full list of all animals listed on Annex IV and this can be found on our website at the following link. The documents is called NEPG1. http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/conservation/wildlife-management-licensing/habsregs.htm

It is legal to possess, transport, sell or exchange any Annex IV specimen that was captive bred. A licence is not required for captive bred specimens. It is likely that any animal conceived and born in a controlled environment would be considered captive and therefore not taken from the wild. However, an animal produced as a result of a fertile egg taken from the wild and hatched in a controlled (captive) environment, would be considered to have been taken from the wild. Likewise the offspring of a gravid (being with young or pregnant) animal taken from the wild and born in a controlled environment would be considered to be taken from the wild.A licence is not required for captive bred specimens or animals taken from outside the EC, or specimens taken prior to 10th June 1994 hence you will not need to provide Natural England with documentary evidence.If the specimens you possess are not captive bred and have been obtained since 10th June 1994 from within the EC then you are likely to require a licence. The application form is available on the Natural England website at the above link. The form is called WML A37.

Please contact me if you would like any further information

My reply -

Dear Xx Xxxxxxx,

First of all thank you for your response, it is greatly appreciated. Forgive my indulgence but I have a few more questions.

All of my specimens are Captive Bred and I am reassured by your words "A licence is not required for captive bred specimens or animals taken from outside the EC, or specimens taken prior to 10th June 1994 hence you will not need to provide Natural England with documentary evidence."

May I again ask if challenged, would I (or anyone else) be expected to prove my/their innocence and what criteria you would accept as proof of an animal being Captive Bred. In other words, do I have to prove that my animals are CB in any foreseeable scenario and if so how?

Further to that, what documentary proof might be required (if applicable) by breeders of EPS animals, if a scenario presents itself whereby legality has to be proven? I’d imagine that might be quite tricky to accomplish, given that it has previously not been a requirement (or even just prudent) to possess any documentation for such animals.

"It is legal to possess, transport, sell or exchange any Annex IV specimen that was captive bred. A licence is not required for captive bred specimens." Fine, this is great news, I'm gratefully relieved and I totally understand this thank you.

This next sentence I'd like some clarification on please. "It is likely that any animal conceived and born in a controlled environment would be considered captive and therefore not taken from the wild." May I ask under what circumstances an animal might not be considered Captive Bred, other than "an animal produced as a result of a fertile egg taken from the wild and hatched in a controlled (captive) environment, would be considered to have been taken from the wild. Likewise the offspring of a gravid (being with young or pregnant) animal taken from the wild and born in a controlled environment would be considered to be taken from the wild" or "specimens you possess are not captive bred and have been obtained since 10th June 1994 from within the EC then you are likely to require a licence." I just wanted to know the exceptions, as the use of the word likely implies there are some?

Finally, how is it possible to prove that an animal was wild caught before 10th June 1994, when it may have been offered for sale or came into your possession, after 10th June 1994? Again, documentation wasn't previously required, so none are likely to be present now.

Thank you for your time in answering my earlier queries and these ones above, it is appreciated, as myself and other hobbyists wish to remain within the law.

Kind regards, Dave Royans.


The reply -

Dave

Apologies for not replying earlier to your email. Natural England's role under the Habitats Regulations is that primarily of a licensing body. We are not responsible for enforcing breaches of the Regulations. It is the police who are responsible for enforcing this legislation though we will provide assistance where appropriate or investigate possible offences. It is possible that a private individual may take a private prosecution.

Regarding a definition of what is considered as captive bred. The relevant offences in the Habitats Regulations relate to wild animals. Ultimately it is the for the court to decide what is considered to be wild as opposed to captive bred. The advice which Natural England has given in relation to what is considered captive bred is guidance only and hence is phrased in such a way. I am not aware of any exceptions to this guidance.

Regards Xx Xxxxxxx.

[Scott W]

thanks for Dave, very interesting and quite worrying that the replies avoided answering how one can prove their animals are captive bred and from legal stock before the 1994 deadline.
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Please DO NOT pm orders for reptiles, send email instead scott@captivebred.co.uk

[devboy]

Yup, as I understand it, no one seems to fully understand how this will pan out. Early days.
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www.ratsnakefoundation.org
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[slippery42]

How can NE/DEFRA expect to get anywhere with this?

Are we not innocent untill proven guilty in the UK????
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Live for today as your dead for a long long time

Using Nikon D300's and pro lenses

[Morbid]

[peaches]

Ultimately it is the for the court to decide what is considered to be wild as opposed to captive bred

It is this line here that does give me some faith - Why? Because normal court rulings are innocent untill proven guilty
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www.ratsnakefoundation.org

[Morbid]

Exactamundo..

That is why a paper from a 3:rd partie, stating that a certain animal is CB is good to have.

I am trying to get the authorities here to accept an old receipt from a Danish importer as a proof that the animals I keep are CB´s too.. I already had a breedercetificate from him on the animals I bought..
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*** Miqe ***


Assumption is the Mother of all f***ups.