Reptile Forum, Reptile Classifieds - CaptiveBred

[Sean]

Yes chad it is captivity but at the same time we have a responsibility to replicate their natural environment as much as possible in my opinion and to me the best way to do this is to have a natural photo period as possible. I think if you increase the metabolic rate of the animal concerned this may lead to premature death.

[varanus]

[JStroud]

Handbags guys Thank you

I personally am in the boat of not using 24 hour lighting as some of you are, as some of you say I can see no real benefit to me in keeping them in these conditions as a species I keep to enjoy. Then again from a breeding prospective this type of behaviour may largely influence an increased productivity stemming from the faster growth rates which is what the keeper is aiming for.

Just going to leave a bit of an open questions here, have heard of many keepers using and not using this form of lights both with tremendous success rates so what is everyones views on the use of UV lights with Varanids?
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Regards James Stroud

[AS]

Thanks for the replies. First to address some points (cant remember who made which point though so stay with me)
OK in regard to lights for light and light for heat, I have T5 fluoros for light, and bulbs for heat. In response to utilising 24/7 lighting to increase productivity, that is not my intention, I have no interest in pushing animals beyond their limit just for profit. The main reason I asked about 24/7 was because it would improve the level of choice for the monitor, allowing them to regulate themselves, if they didn't like the light they could get away from it.
The idea about natural conditions troubles me (not what you said, just the idea itself) I mean the animals aren't in the wild they are in captivity. Whatever we do we can never hope to replicate Mother Nature, we cant even hope to understand the number of variables in the wild, let alone how they interact with each other. I remember being told about phyllurus geckos in the wild, traditionally we are told that their environment never goes above 30 degrees and to keep them cool or they die, however in the wild they shelter under bark and other cover which acts as a heat trap meaning they are experiencing temps well into the 90s. OK, so that has little to do with 24hour lights, but it is an example of how we as keepers can misinterpret an animals requirements. That is why I was considering 24/7 lighting, just to improve the level of choice. Also, while a day night cycle is more natural than constant lighting, in order to replicate nature perfectly we would need access to dawn/ dusk times for the animals exact locality(not likely with Australia's export laws) and be able to make adjustments on a daily basis. Even if we could do this, it would make keeping the animal so difficult for the keeper, the lizard itself might start to suffer neglect. Captivity should be all about the animals needs (and I am sure this is true for everyone here) but part of that means a certain level of convenience for the keeper so they can concentrate on whats important for the animal. Finally, about varanus.net I disagree with a lot of what is said there, and the responses are usually fairly hostile, but you cant deny FR's success and whether you like him or not, he has a way of making you think more deeply about what your animals need, and why as a keeper you do the things you do.
On reflection though I don't think I will switch to 24/7 lighting. I will carry on using a tubular heater for background night heat, and I will stick to my crude interpretation of seasonal light cycles for my varanids.
Thanks, AS

[AlbigularisCrazy]

I'm guess ALL of you did NOT read ALL my post, because i DO use a photopeird odd, like i SAID BEFORE i have tube lights(not UV) that get turned off at NIGHT, but the 2-3 45watt basking bulbs stay on, the pair can be in complete darkness, to different shades of darkness depending where there at in the cage. You say it Will cause death, i don't believe you because i have proved that to be wrong (to my self of course) 8 y/o old bosc, sure its not 15+ 20+ or not 35 y/o lace, but its a start and shes going on strong. Also like i said before There is SO MUCH WE DO NOT KNOW ABOUT these awesome animals, there IS NO RIGHT WAY! My reasoning of this is we have NOT tried everything, I'm NO FOLLOWER of Varanus.net hahahahahahahahahah lmo In fact i DISAGREE with alot of which is said there. If you don't go out side of the box where are you? a follower? i think so, i Do more different things than just 24/7 basking spot. I feed odd end things, i have my cage set up a little different than others. I don't follow what others, sure i take advice, i took some Advice of incubating eggs, a few months back from you Dave (crocdoc).
This is a good discussion even know I'm kinda by my self on it haha. Thanks

Chad-oh

[Dan]

Chad, i don't think you understand what the actual concern here is

The concern is that having constant lighting speeds up the normal life cycle of the animal. This causes death sooner than would have happened were the animal kept in conditions closer to those that nature provide

An 8yr old lizard may be an adult in a sexual sense but is really only middle aged in lizard terms (based on living 20yrs). For this animal to live until this time is nothing to be proud of If you equate it into human terms you would be happy if your personally only lived until your 40, nevermind the 60 possible extra years that others will live

In time when you have a 20 year old lizard that has been kept this way you can then say you have proof your methods work. Until then you are simply working to prove a theory

I know you are saying that you have 2 sets of lights within your vivarium and one switches off at night. You are also saying that when in hides the light doesnt affect the lizards in question. However they can't wander around at any point in darkness.
This situation causes mental stress in humans and mammals, i don't honestly know though if a reptiles mind is developed far enough to create the same stresses, nor do i know if a reptile has light receptors placed in the body like a human (behind the knees for example) which work together with eyes to detect light levels and control the brain.

Disclaimer:- I don't keep lizards, the above is only my opinion and my understanding of the discussion subject
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TFA

The future is bright, the future is a net like pattern.................

I'm NOT an expert, so if you don't want to know my opinion don't ask!!

[AS]

Jstroud, we just finished a big debate about UV light in relation to varanids over on redtailboa.net (not suggesting that you visit another forum ) and the general consensus was that although it wasn't vital it wasn't harmful either. I started the thread because I was concerned about the possible harmful effects of mercury vapour lighting; I had read a number of reports from various zoological institutions concerning MV bulbs and possible retinal damage in lizards kept under this type of light. However we reached the conclusion that the damage resulted from misuse of the equipment rather than any inherent dangers. The main argument for not using UV was that monitors subsist on whole food (with livers rich in Vit. D3) so UV light was superfluous. Also, on varanus.net (if you trust them) it was said that being crevice dwellers a lot of the dwarf monitors aren't exposed to significant levels of UV in the wild.
On the flip side, proponents of UV lights will tell you how much more difficult it is to retain adequate blood serum levels of D3 with oral suplementation (not to mention the risk of overdosing) Research done on Komodo Dragons comparing lizards maintained on supplements and to those maintained under UV bulbs highlights just how big a difference there actually is; however, Chester Zoo uses oral supplements on their K Dragons with success. If you want to learn more about the implementation of UV lighting I suggest you contact Bob Mcargar at reptileuv.com, he is pretty busy but he will at least point you in the right direction.
Other than that providing the monitor in question is able to take cover from the light if it so wishes I don't really seen any harm personally, but it's your call in the end.
Thanks, AS

[Sean]

I said it may lead to premature death not that it will cause certain death. This procedure is in its infancy in herpetology so we are yet to see the certain outcome of what this does in the long term on the physical and mental health side. You say your bosc is 8 years old yet earlier you said that your oldest varanus was an albigularis at almost 1.5 years old? Even if this animal is 8 years old who's to say that it as benefited from this procedure when we still won't know the outcome until lifespans are matched equally with species living for 20+ years so I think your so called proof is a little premature. I remember Dr Rudolf Wicker ( Frankfurt Zoo ) telling me that you can keep a man alive in a prison cell and on the surface he may seem healthy but who to knows is state of mind and this can be applied to reptiles as well so this is why it is important to make it as natural as one can in captivity.

[AlbigularisCrazy]

Truthfully i don't think it will cause premature death. Saying that 99% of all importing albigs,and boscs, don't see 6 months of ages, let alot 1 year. Shows something to me. Ok Do you use a 24/7 HOT spot? or just turn off all heat at night? This is where I've seen problems occure with not digesting right, EXTREMA LY SLOW growth, infection and most of this has intern lead to death, from what I have seen.

Chad-oh

[Sean]

When my lights go off the background temperature of the room is adequate for night time temps. I only keep desert species now as you will know it can become quite cold at night in the deserts and even then my night time room temps are still around 20c at night. I think if you feed your animals in the morning or the early part of the day then you shouldn't see a problem of undigested food causing the problems you mention because they will have most of the day to bask which will assist digestion.