Reptile Forum, Reptile Classifieds - CaptiveBred

miffikins · Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 6:20 pm Post subject: Gutloading...

I have always fed my crix a mix of bran and fresh veggies (they have seasonal christmas veg mix at the mo Very Happy

) and then I dust them with pure calcium. Are there any high calcium foods I can feed them?? I have used that bug grub stuff before but wasn't sure it was good enough for me me to cut out calcium dusting.

Any help would be greatly appreciated

Cheers

Jas · Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:49 am Post subject:

Feeding them veggies is good but loose the bran as its too high in Phosphorus, the bug grub does increase the calcium a little but not enough to cut out additional dusting. Carob flour is a very high calcium food and because of its chocolate flavour its readily eaten by feeder insects and it also contains other beneficial properties. Very Happy

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miffikins · Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:57 am Post subject:

So lose the bran and get some carob flour, lovely Very Happy

Should I keep dusting with calcium as well once I get some carob flour?

Cheers!

mark68 · Contributing Member Joined: 02 Mar 2007 Posts: 160

I would definately stop using bran. i have read that people who have tried to lose weight by adding lots of wheat bran to their diet, can have problems absorbing calcium in the diet. This is because there is some sort of inhibitor in bran which makes calcium absorbtion difficult. This is likely to be the same with reptiles I should think ? For high calcium intake I would suggest use veggies such as kale and other dark green cabbages, and dandelion also is VERY good. Also suggest tomato and carrot for beta carotenes. While gutloading I wouldn't advice using cereals at all. Its generally not very natural. If you want to use cereals then chicken mash or ground up chicken pellets (both food for chickens, not made from chickens !) are both high in calcium.

It is impossible to say whether you need to still dust with calcium, it depends on what you are feeding, what type of lighting you have, and so many other factors. You would need to give more details !!

miffikins · Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:43 pm Post subject:

Thanks Mark that was really helpful. I'm feeding 6 leos which do not have UV, I will one day get round to changing that, a blue tongue, an ackie and a swift all with UV.

I have been feeding my insects mostly carrot and kale and I have now cut out the bran. I will try and get hold of some Carob flour too. I'll keep dusting with calcium for the time being!

Thanks! Cool

mark68 · Contributing Member Joined: 02 Mar 2007 Posts: 160

Personally I wonder where leopard geckos get the D3 in the wild they need to absorb calcium (so it is said). I keep some outdoors in a very natural way, and I have never seen them bask in sunshine, so wouldn't bother with UV lights for them. I mix pure calcium 50/50 with a calcium/d3 vitamin mix like Nutrobal. This dilutes the D3 down a bit. Then I dust the bugs with this mix every 3rd or 4th meal.

With the other species I would recommend a high UV output bulb 8% for the ackie and swift which both bask naturally alot in intense sunshine. I would recommend calcium still in the diet. It is my theory that these types of sunloving reptile need a lot of calcium simply because they are so poor at absorbing calcium in captivity due to the limitatations of the artificial UV lighting. I would give calcium at least twice a week.

By the way dried figs are high in calcium too. I have not tried them with my feeder insects yet. Also when I said dandelions also recommend clover and hawkweeds too.

Jas · Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 3:52 pm Post subject: Re: calcium

mark68 · Contributing Member Joined: 02 Mar 2007 Posts: 160

Hi Jas
the "bouncing UV light" theory makes some sense. I have a UVB meter and its incredible how little UVB a lot of "high output UV" tubes emit compared to sunshine even in the UK. I know of a breeder who produces 1000's of lizards each year, but does not use any vitamins or even calcium supplements. The bugs he breeds himself get mixed veg/fruit and a little bread only as food. The eggs the lizards produce hatch well I think because the lizards are able to efficiently absorb the the calcium from the "gutloaded" insects because they live in sunshine and do not have internal parasite problems. I hadn't thought about the possibility of the D3 in insects that eat carrion. That also makes sense ! I have read that D2, the human artificially made form of vit D (made with the help of a fungus) CANNOT be absorbed by reptiles.

Trying to keep lizards indoors, and getting the D3/calcium levels right is a very difficult balancing act. Especially when you are trying to get the lizards to produce D3 themselves via UV lights. I think you are right in that in reality it is difficult to overdose on calcium, but easy to overdose on Nutrobal and similar vitamins that were developed when D3 tubes were a tenth of the power they are now.

I will post some pics soon on another thread, of my outdoor enclosures. We have just started working on new 2x2 metre enclosures. We plan to make 9 of these before April, with another 9 to come later this year.

Jas · Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:16 am Post subject:

mark68 · Contributing Member Joined: 02 Mar 2007 Posts: 160

Yes Bert is the breeder. I spent a week living with him and Hester, in August this year on his farm. It was an amazing experience. His baby lizards in particular get alot of wild food, fruit flies, and larger flies brought in by the tomatoes and other fruit/veg put in the enclosures.