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captainmerkin
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Joined: 06 May 2007
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 Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:01 pm Post subject: housing multiple species. |
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ok not sure how this would go but would like opinions..
I have some hylia treefrogs (lemon yellows) in a large 36 inch tank with hood and good lighting, its growing like mad inside and moss is coming up everywhere.. must remember pics soon..
but its a huge tank and I am wondering if I can keep some other things in there too? I dont even know what to suggest, but something cheap and pretty would be nice.
any ideas or would it be too stressful for froggies? |
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MJ
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Joined: 26 May 2006
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Location: London
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| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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Mixing really isnt a good idea IMO, stress, cross contamination, differant needs (food heating ect).
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captainmerkin
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| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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understood 
may do up a smaller tank for them later in the year then and put something different in the big one... gorr not to mention the 48 incher Im doing up right now  |
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sam
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Joined: 10 Nov 2006
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Location: Glasgow, uk
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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Its always very tempting to try a community set up, but its best always to think of the animals first. If you interested, give this wee article i composed a read:
| Sam Kerr, 2007 on Pollywog forum wrote: | There are many reasons why you should refrain from mixing seperate species of amphibian (or indeed mixing amphibians with other animals such as fish or reptiles)
Habitat/territory size
First of all, the vivariums we have for our pets are far smaller than their natural territories. This is normally ok-in the majority of cases the only reason an animal has such a large territory in the wild is because it needs this area in order to have sufficient resources-such as food, shelter and mates.
In captivity, we condense these resources into a smaller area-so in many cases the animal doesnt need much more space than we give it. When we add more animals of the same species into the tank they compete for the same resources-so a larger space is required-as are items which block other animals from sight of their cage mates. Providing the animals are capable of escaping each other if they need it, and providing there are enough hiding paces and food for them not to fight, things should work well.
Stress
Having animals of different species in a vivarium together will probably cause stress to all the animals involved. The only way you can really get around this is by ensuring the animals wont meet-and in order to do this you need a VERY large vivarium. Also, you need two species which have very different niches-for example a ground dweller and an arboreal species. Mixing diurnal and nocturnal animals can also cuses stress, as each is active only when the other is trying to rest. The stress from simply having two or more species within one small territory will most probably inhibit breeding behaviour, as the animals wont be at ease.
Toxic secretions
All amphibians secrete substances through their skin-they need to in order to stay moist enough to respire properly. Many of these secretions are also toxic or irritant, and have a defense purpose. The fact that amphibian skin ALSO means they absorb things from their environment very well means that mixing two species of amphibian could result in them both absorbing each others different toxic secretions and dying.
Predation
A lot of amphibians will prey upon and devour smaller members of both their own species and other species. They may also eat or destroy the eggs, tadpoles or young of their cagemates. If any mixing is to occur both must be very similar in size.
Bacteria, Viruses, Fungi and Parasites
All of these may be carried by amphibians (or indeed any animal or for that matter plant), and amphibians from different geographical locations, climates and ecosystems will show differing imunity and susceptibility to them. Chances are infections could pass between the two species. It is vital that even when mixing animals of the same species (but from different shops or breeders) you should have a quarantine period in which you make sure all animals are healthy. It is also prudent to send of faecal swabs to ones veterinarian so that any asymptomatic conditions the animal has or is carrying may be brought to light.
Interbreeding and hybridisation
The chance of hybridisation means that closely related species (and sub species or "morphs"-being animals of the same species but slightly different due to geographical isolation) should not be kept together. Doing so would create animals which simply would not occur in the majority of cases in the wild.
It therefore can be seen that it is generally a very bad plan to mix animals of two seperate species - the cons far outweigh the pro's (if there are any pro's)
There is no benefit to the animals from keeping different species together-so doing so is purely an act of self gratification on behalf of the keeper. If you want a wide mix of species-keep several tanks-the animals will be happier and therefore be more interesting to watch and learn from. Its better to have one healthyspecies which thrives and breeds for you than several which will either die or simply never breed. |
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RonW
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:49 am Post subject: |
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Would you think mixing is even bad if you take a nocturnal arboreal species and a more terrestrial diurnal species?
Years ago I had a large viv with Hyla ebraccata and Phyllobatus vittatus. Had that viv for about 2 years and there didn't seem to be any problems as far as I could see.
Mind you I'm not one that easily mixes species, but at the same time I have seen quite a few mixes that worked well. But I don't know that much about amphibs, to be honest. |
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Scott W
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 11:48 am Post subject: |
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I'm very open to the idea of mixing species, even as far as mixing lizards with frogs etc.
It's all down to setting up the correct size viv in a suitable way, something that's far too hard to just write up on a forum. Also of course is the importance of choosing the right species.
Overall community vivs are superb but you do need a good all round knowledge and experiance to ensure you don't have any problems, certainly not something that anyone should try at the drop of a hat 
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sam
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Joined: 10 Nov 2006
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Location: Glasgow, uk
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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With me it just boils down to one question... is it directly benefitial for the animals? If not, why bother?
This is of course generalising as to what the individual hobbiest can provide...some people may be able to provide the space and may have the knowledge like Scott says... but for all intensive purposes I wouldnt bother-it just makes it that bit harder on your animals and yourself.
If I was to ever mix it would definitely be animals found in the same locale in the wild... and it would have to be a HUGE enclosure!
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captainmerkin
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Joined: 06 May 2007
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| Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 11:41 am Post subject: |
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thanks guys.
to be honest I would rather just get more of the same frogs but cant seem to get more now, so it was just a passing thought and I wont be mixing anything just yet.
maybe if I ever get a bat cave to do up as a rain forest who knows! |
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Morbid
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Joined: 14 Mar 2006
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Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| Scott W wrote: | I'm very open to the idea of mixing species, even as far as mixing lizards with frogs etc.
It's all down to setting up the correct size viv in a suitable way, something that's far too hard to just write up on a forum. Also of course is the importance of choosing the right species.
Overall community vivs are superb but you do need a good all round knowledge and experiance to ensure you don't have any problems, certainly not something that anyone should try at the drop of a hat |
I agree..
And it is a lot simpler if you manage to have an outdoor viv with species living under same conditions and areas..
I am planning to keep H. arboreas with B. calamitas..
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